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  #1  
Old 11-10-2006, 06:13 AM
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Crossed Rifles

Does anyone know when the Cross Rifles took effect on our uniforms?
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Old 11-10-2006, 11:57 AM
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It was around 1960, I was at Kaneoe when they added the rank of Lcpl and that is when the crossed rifles came in. Could be wrong but that is what I think.
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Old 11-10-2006, 12:10 PM
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This is Janet - Is this anything?

This is in reference to the specific photo attached....

The following is from:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../usmc/3-23.htm

3rd Battalion, 23rd Marine Regiment

"The design of the 3rd Battalion, 23rd Marines Arms incorporates heraldic symbols that reflect its purpose, locations, and affiliations. The white shield symbolizes the purity of mission in protecting the ideals and people of the Country. Scarlet trim on the shield honors the sacrifice of blood by members of the Battalion and the Marine Corps. The crossed rifles represent the Infantry mission of the Battalion and honors its World War II and Persian Gulf War service depicting the M-1 Garand and M-16A2 Rifles. The unsheathed Arabian Sword illustrates the combat action recorded by the Battalion while activated during the Persian Gulf War."


I'll keep looking.
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Old 11-10-2006, 04:11 PM
jimsumpter jimsumpter is offline
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This is Janet - A little more info

The following is from the website: http://4mermarine.com/USMC/dictionary.html#G

Technical Sergeant.
A World War II and Korea period rank, the insignia of which was three chevrons and two horizontal bars. It was part of a dual rank system which had technicians and command ranks. In the 1960s the rank became gunnery sergeant and the crossed rifles were added. Also a current Air Force rank upon which the insignia of the top three enlisted grades are constructed. See Staff Sergeant of Marines.

And the following from:
http://www.the-pacific-war.com/phpBB...363dc26978def0

Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:42 pm

-- it seems the USMC had the rank of Technical Sergeant at least as long as 1951, when TecSgt HAROLD E. WILSON was awarded the Medal of Honor for action in Korea, 1951, as part of 3/1/1. This Tec Sgt was a Marine platoon sergeant and therefore not an REMF, so I wonder what designated the rank versus Gy Sgt. (Bluefalcon, your link is not working at this time, but I'll try it later -- it looks like a Czech Republic url?) I wonder when this rank was first introduced in the USMC. I'm now trying to locate a copy of a book that would solve this and many more such mysteries for me, titled, "United States Marine Corps Ranks and Grades 1798-1962" Marine Corps historical reference series by: Bernard C. Nalty?
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Old 11-10-2006, 04:20 PM
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Gary,

A little info from GyG's website.....

Between 1946 and 1958, there were only three major alternations in the enlisted rank structure. First, the Career Compensation Act of 12 October 1949 turned the pay-grade numbering system upside down by placing privates in pay grade E-1 and master sergeants in grade E-7. Second, the Marine Corps announced in December 1954 the establishment of two additional titles within grade E-7. The rank of sergeant major was to take precedence over the newly resurrected first sergeant, who, in turn, was placed above the master sergeant. This last change was made to give recognition to noncommissioned officers acting in these important billets; the job of first sergeant or sergeant major was too important to be classed merely as an administrative specialty. This re-emphasis on the role of the senior noncommissioned officers was followed by a sweeping revision of the enlisted ranks and grades of the Marine Corps in 1958, after Congress amended the Career Compensation Act of 1949 and authorized two new pay grades, E-8 and E-9. This revision was designed to relieve the crowding at the E-7 grade, caused by the rapid World War II output of noncommissioned officers and, since then, by the moving up--appropriately enough--of the specifically skilled men which every service was recruiting more and more. The end result, however, was an unbalanced structure, too heavy at the top.

By 1958, the proportion of NCOs in the Marine Corps had climbed to 58% of the total enlisted strength, a startling figure when compared to the 25% of 1941. It is even more startling when one considers that the Marine Corps from its founding until World War I never had a proportion higher that 18.8%, with the usual percentage ranging between 13 and 15%. The increased mechanized nature of World War I, however, had shown the need for military technicians in modern warfare, From then on, an increase in the proportion of NCOs resulted. By 1937, it had reached 27%, and a staggering 40% by 1954.
This compression at the top, 58% in 1958, led to rank imbalance and confusion. There were E-7s supervising other E-7s, while some corporals continued doing the same job after promotion as they did before. In short, the prestiege of the NCO, traditional and necessary to any military service, was declining at the very time when it should be increased.

The solution to this imbalance, plus other desirable changes, was ordered by the Commandant on 25 November 1958, to be effective 1January 1959. Substantially, it followed the recommendation of a study by the Enlisted Rank and Pay Structure Board, convened to adapt the new legislation to the Marine Corps. Besises revisions of rank structure, adjustments of proficiency pay were made in an attempt to meet competition for critical skills without inflation of rank, develop and maintain a balanced work force, and reward outstanding individual achievement.

A transitional period of dual grade structure, to end entirely on 1 January 1965, was worked out to insure that no Marine would lose stripes. This was achieved by establishing "acting" ranks, so that all Marines would be able to retain their existing titles, insignia, and privileges. Upon promotion, they would assume the new rank titles. The prefix "acting," however, was abolished by the Commandant on 1 August 1960, and the end of the transitional period for all grades was moved up to 1 July 1963.

In this revision of 1958, the ranks of corporal through master sergeant were upgraded one pay grade each, making room for an additional private rank. The sergeant major/first sergeant program was retained, with its historic command prestiege, but a new technical leadership was introduced into the top NCO levels, in recognition of the ever-increasing complexity of waging modern warfare, by permitting E-8 and E-9 billets to be filled also by occupational specialists. Since technical adeptness was now required of quite a few others besides the technical sergeant, this title ceased to have value and it was deleted. Marines holding that rank were designated acting gunnery sergeants.

The rank of corporal was placed in pay grade E-4 in order to preserve his status as the junior NCO in the Marine Corps. The rank of sergeant with three stripes, formerly E-4, was selected to replace the rank of staff sergeant at E-5, in order to have two ranks of NCOs and to remove one rank from the ranks of staff NCOs which would start at staff sergeant in pay grade E-6. Personnel holding the rank of staff sergeant would carry the title of acting staff sergeant until promoted.
The occasion also enabled the Marine Corps to reapply its colorful history to the grade structure. The title of lance corporal, first used by the Marines in the Indian Wars of the 1830s was revived. Now, for the first time, it was a permanent rank. In addition, the memorable "Gunny"--the gunnery sergeant and the master gunnery sergeant--was exhumed.

In E-7, the gunnery sergeant was used in place of the master sergeant, partly to restore the traditional rank and to move the title "master sergeant" from pay grade E-7 to E-8. As for the first sergeant, no change was involved except to raise the rank from E-7 to E-8. The rank of master gunnery sergeant, revived to provide leadership in occupational fields, was put at the top in E-9, alongside the sergeant major, raised from E-7 to E-9 and still the senior NCO.

Viewed in its entirety, the new enlisted structure enhanced career attractiveness which, for more than a century, had drawn volunteers to the Marine Corps. There was full acknowledgement of the modern military picture, yet no Marine could sadly say that "things aren't like thet were in the old corps." Also, the first year under the revised structure, fiscal year 1959, saw a new proportion of NCOs--a more logical 37.4%, and as of 30 November 1961, it was still only 37.5%.
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Old 11-11-2006, 04:34 AM
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So what I get from the above posting..

is the addition of the crossed rifles appeared in 1960. This helps in determining the approx year of the graduation books that have note date associated with them.

Graduation books that are pre-1960's do not have dates on any of the pages except those pages that reflect the commanding general page and when he/she took command of their respective recruit commands.
As an example; Major General Thomas A. Wornham took command of MCRD San Diego in 1956. The book shows Marines with NO crossed rifles, and recruits training with M1 Garands.

One must assume this book was created sometime between 1956 and 1960. I beleive the M14 rifle came into play around 1962 or 1963. In this same book the recruits are firing .22 cal pistals, and .22 cal rifles

What this leads me to do is create platoon section in the boot camp database with section denoted as; San Diego 1956 - 1960.

So far I haven't run across any platoon numbers that have been re-used like we have for the 60's forward.

Another bit of history we're dealing with are books that we receive that were generated for specific units. I just received a book from the Second battalion, Four Marines listed as The Magnificent Bastards dated 1979.
Or the book of the First Battalion, Third Marines Viey Nam dated 1964 - 1965. These books are not just about our Corps, but the individual men and women of these units.
I'm still looking into how best to place these historical pages on the site. I've scanned the pages (117 for the last book mentioned) and will add them to the site once I've created a section for this kind of historical information.

Thanks to each of you who have added to this thread, it's appreciated.


Cpl Miller


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  #7  
Old 11-11-2006, 09:19 AM
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GyBill's article appears to right on the money. I was in
during those days, and the changeover from'acting' to permanent really made a lot of the Senior NCO'S unhappy. Especially the 'acting' MSgt's. I knew of some who had to revert from Master to Gunny, and they set some bad examples for the younger troops. Some of them had been Master Sergeants for a long time. They had served in their younger days at places like Midway, the Canal, etc.
Thanks for the memories.
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Old 11-11-2006, 02:08 PM
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Sounds..

a littel unfair to me...
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Old 11-16-2006, 07:01 PM
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Cool Gary! You didn't read everything!

The MCO establishing the new rank structure was in 1958. In 1959, the new stripes with crossed rifles started to appear.
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Old 11-17-2006, 06:55 AM
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Thanks for the heads up Jack...

At least I now have a timeline when I recieve books from the late 50's.

Thanks again
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  #11  
Old 11-17-2006, 10:13 AM
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The crossed rifles...

are not M1s or M-14s...but some earlier shoulder weapon carried by Marines. This came up in another forum a while back, it's not the '03 Springfield either. I can't remember the exact model.

When I was in Boot Camp, September-December 1959, all my Drill Instructors were "Acting." My Senior DI was an Acting Staff Sergeant, the JDIs were all Acting Sergeants. Not a single "crossed rifle" in the bunch.

When the new rank structure was implemented in January 1959, a dual rank structure was allowed for the transition period from January 1959 to mid-1963 when the new rank structure was fully implemented.

That is, a Cpl E-3 became an Acting Corporal in order to prevent a demotion to L/Cpl E-3, etc. I guess if you didn't qualify for a promotion during the transition period (3-1/2 years?), you did get demoted.

For me, I was a Private and PFC for much of the transition period, it didn't concern me at all. I made L/Cpl E-3 mid-1961 and Cpl E-4 in mid-1962.

I carried an M-1 from Boot Camp until I was stationed at Camp Lejeune in 1961. M-14s were issued in 1962. I carried an M-14 during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

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Last edited by LarSim; 11-17-2006 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 11-17-2006, 10:36 AM
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Cool I agree the the crossed rifles were not the M-14 but......

I do think they were crossed M1 Garands. Take a look at this:



It may not be a completely acurate picture of two M1 Garands but it's close.

Also, some years before, the Corps chose to change the crossed rifles on the Rifle Expert Badge from crossed springfields to crossed M1 Garands. I 1958/1959, that would have been the correct weapon.
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Old 11-17-2006, 02:58 PM
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The breech, and the..

forward stock tell me it's a Garand, at least that's my take on it.
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Old 11-17-2006, 04:43 PM
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Crossed Rifles

Just looked at my old Ike Jacket ( don't make those anymore ) hanging in the closet and my E-3 Chevron is definitely crossed M1's.
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Old 11-18-2006, 04:17 AM
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Cool The period when LCPL was introduced was tough

They were not sure how to use LCPL's. Some were used in jobs usually stood by CPL's. Some were just treated as PFC's. My biggest gripe was I was in a guard unit where the CPL E-3 in charge had made CPL E-3 a few months before I made LCPL E-3. He was a complete idiot! It's tough to take orders from an idiot. The only saving grace was I stood posts that isolated me from him even when he was CPL of the Guard. Two of the posts made it necessary for him to call me prior to checking posts as I had a FTS clearance and he didn't.
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Old 11-18-2006, 05:49 AM
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All ranks have their assholes Jack..

For me it was a SSgt in charge of our warehouse unit. He would also screw with me because I was marrying an Okinawa girl. One night (we worked swing shift) he just kept on screwing with me and I had finally had enough. So I decked the sucker.
Lost my Cpl Stripes for six months before I got them back.

On the flip side I drove a jeep for a year for a Mustang LT, he landed on Oki during WWII at 18. He knew what the rank and file was all about. He was a great officer. Never heard form him again after he headed into Country.
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Old 11-18-2006, 10:33 AM
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Thumbs up The period when LCPL was introduced was tough

I agree.

When I was with the 2nd Pioneer Bn at Camp Lejeune, L/Cpls stood Company Duty NCO watch. They really didn't know if a L/Cpl was a junior NCO or a senior PFC.

About the time I made Corporal (E-4), 2nd Marine Division Headquarters (or was it Marine Corps Headquarters?) came out with a ruling that L/Cpls were NOT NCOs and were not to stand watches attributed to NCOs. This after over a year as a L/Cpl of standing company Duty NCO. Naturally this reduced the pool of NCOs eligible to stand Company Duty NCO. Just my luck.

On the crossed rifles inquiry. I must admit, the rifles sure do look like M1 Garands (see attached photo).

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Old 11-18-2006, 04:23 PM
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Talking I think the Crossed Rifles...

are based on the Model 1917 Enfield. Carried by Marines in WWI. See attached pic.

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Old 11-19-2006, 04:13 AM
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Cool I might agree except the Garand muzzle matches better

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Old 11-20-2006, 02:46 PM
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Talking JITB...I kind of agree...

except for the high profile of the rear sights on the embroidered cross rifles on the chevrons. Seems too large for an M-1.

The embroidered cross rifles on the chevrons really don't show enough detail. I'm having trouble seeing the gas cylinder under the muzzle on the embroidered crossed rifles. Cheap ass chevrons!

I need to do more research.

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